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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #71 - Autonomous Investment in 1.2

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 dev diary! Today’s diary marks the start of dev diaries about Patch 1.2, which is the next major upcoming patch for Victoria 3 (release date to be announced). As with 1.1, 1.2 will contain a slate of bug fixes, UX improvements, AI improvements and so on, but also some more significant changes to game mechanics, which we’re going to go over in these dev diaries.

The particular changes we’ll be talking about today, as alluded to by the title, is Autonomous Investment, which is something we said we were going to look into for our post-release plans back in Dev Diary #64. What we said back then is that while we are never going to take construction out of the hands of the player entirely, we were open to the idea of non-government entities constructing buildings in a way not directly controlled by the country, and what we came up with is a system where the Investment Pool will be used by private entities to construct different types of buildings depending on your economic laws.

Before going over how all this works, I first want to mention that we recognize that the community is somewhat split on the issue of autonomous construction, and as such, we’ve opted to create a new Game Rule for Autonomous Investment. By default, Autonomous Investment is enabled, which puts the Investment Pool out of the hands of the player, but you can choose to disable it, which puts the Investment Pool back in the player’s hands and makes it work exactly as it does in the current 1.1.2 version of the game.

The Investment Pool Game Rule allows you to enable or disable autonomous construction with Investment Pool funds, depending on your personal preference
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Regardless of whether Autonomous Investment is enabled, the Investment Pool works pretty much the same as it did before: Certain Pop Types with ownership shares in buildings pay part of their dividends into the Investment Pool, the funds in which can then be drawn on for construction. There are, however, a few key differences in 1.2 compared to 1.1.

Firstly, the types of Pops that invest have been expanded from just Aristocrats and Capitalists to also include Farmers and Shopkeepers. Capitalists invest the highest percentage of their dividends (20%), followed by Aristocrats at 10%, with Farmers and Shopkeepers investing only 5% each. The rationale here is that it wasn’t only the wealthiest in society who invested in new businesses, and this also allows a small degree of investment under laws which strip ownership away from the Capitalists and Aristocrats (but more on that next week).

Secondly, the proportion of dividends that are paid into the Investment Pool varies in 1.1 based on your laws, which can have some pretty bizarre effects, such as switching to Laissez-Faire suddenly creating a bunch of Capitalist Radicals because they are now investing more money and thus end with a drop in their Wealth. The proportion of funds that are invested is now a fixed percentage based on pop type, which is then subjected to an efficiency bonus: Capitalists always invest 20% of their dividends, for example, but under Laissez-Faire, this investment is more efficient and ends up contributing more money to the Investment Pool.

There is also a general investment efficiency bonus for payments into the Investment Pool in small and mid-sized economies, and a penalty in very large ones, to ensure the Investment Pool is also relevant for mid-sized countries while not growing to such absurd proportions that it cannot possibly be spent in a 10 billion GDP country. These efficiency bonuses are meant to abstract a system of foreign investment, which is something we’ve also mentioned is on our radar in Dev Diary #64 but is a bigger rework that we are not tackling yet in patch 1.2.

Agrarianism gives a hefty bonus to the investments of your Farmers and Aristocrats, but reduces investments from Capitalists and greatly limits the types of buildings they can put their money into.
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So how then, does the Investment Pool funds get turned into buildings when Autonomous Investment is enabled? Well, autonomously, of course! With Autonomous Investment, the Construction Queue is split into Private and Government Constructions, with Government Constructions being anything (regardless of whether it’s a Government building or not) ordered to be built or auto-expanded by the player or country-level AI, while a Private Construction is anything the Pops themselves are building. The Construction capacity of the country will be split between the Private and Government queues in a proportion based on your economic law, though if there isn’t enough constructions queued of one type to use its full allocation, the excess can be used by the other queue instead.

In the construction screen, you’ll be able to see what the next planned Private Construction will be, along with its current funding level. The funding level is a calculated value based on both the total funds available in the Investment Pool as well as the weekly funds coming into it, and can fluctuate based on the Market price of Goods used in construction. Once a project is funded and ready, it’ll be added to the private Construction Queue the next tick. Private Constructions, unlike Government ones, cannot be reprioritized or canceled - they will always be built in the order they are queued up by the Pops.

Though the Government is currently building nothing in France, there are several private constructions in progress, and plans for the expansion of the Alsace-Lorraine iron mines. Note that this UI is highly WIP!
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Pop-ordered constructions use a variant of the standard construction AI which doesn’t take into account the country-level AI’s strategic objectives and prioritizes the creation of profitable buildings which will create lucrative jobs for the investing Pop types, but they will also take some more ‘strategic’ factors into account, such as building railroads in low-infrastructure states. Just as with the country-level AI, they also have access to the system of Spending Variables described in Dev Diary #59, which means that they do not operate on a snapshot of the current Market but understand factors such as the impact that already queued buildings (private and government-ordered both) will have on prices once completed and staffed.

Since Autonomous Investment does not only affect player countries, you might be wondering how well this system works together with the AI? The answer is that it actually works quite well! Together with a bunch of AI improvements and fixes in 1.2, this has resulted in more stable economic growth for AI countries and especially seems to have given Great Britain a boost, as the private sector doing its own thing means that the economy is usually growing even if the country’s treasury is having issues, at least as long as the Pops investing into private-sector growth are making healthy profits. There’s still some issues, particularly when AI runs out of available workforce late game, that we are hoping to tackle before 1.2 releases to further improve the AI’s economic growth.

Screenshot from a hands-off game taken in 1908. While there’s certainly still room for improvement and some countries like France and Prussia have underperformed due to wars and turmoil (and Austria continues to overperform compared to history), it’s definitely looking better than in 1.1.2.
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That’s it for today! Join us again next week as we go over more changes to the economy in 1.2, with a particular focus on Economic Laws and the introduction of Government Shares in buildings.
 
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This comment is reserved by the Community Team for gathering Dev Responses in, for ease of reading.


One Proud Bavarian said:


Hey, thanks for the DD!

What are your thoughts on balancing around a game rule that has as much impact as this one?

I think it is fair to say that the speed and focus of an economic build-up will differ quite significantly between an AI-controlled investment pool and a player-controlled investment pool.
For example, players will be likely to realise that it can be advisable to just build 100 levels of opium straight for the massive amounts of additional investment pool contribution this can generate, whereas the AI would be (and with good reason) less likely to build the economy in such an extremely optimal fashion.

My concern here is that the dev team has to account for both this manual tryhard and a more AI-guided approach since the game rule allows for either.
Is balancing this even viable? Is this not quite likely to end with one or the other game rule setting leading to rather unbalanced economic (and with that political, technological, warfare, diplomatic etc) circumstances as only one setting gets focused in development?

All in all quite excited by these alterations, but I can't help but feel that the additional manpower/manhours for testing this game rule are likely to become an issue. I'd even say that I would have liked it if the game instead fully committed to this new investment pool approach even if not everybody were to be a fan of it.

Click to expand...
Honestly, I would say that I'm not too worried by it - for sure it's likely that experienced players will have an easier time with the game if they decide to play with Autonomous Investment off, but given that this is only difficult in context of a single player game (or a MP where everyone uses the same rule) I don't think this is something that requires a ton of careful balancing on our part - that time is probably better spent improving the AI or finding ways to make it more challenging to 'snowball' your GDP in general. In regards to your last point, we intentionally built this feature in such a way as to piggyback on the existing investment pool mechanics, and the amount of extra testing required on our end should be minimal.


MGoods said:


2 questions:

Can the pop investment pool build queue decide to queue up construction sectors? Or is that government construction only?

If the government queue is empty does the private queue get to make use of the idle construction capacity? Same for the reverse.
At the moment there is no private construction industries, it's something we're looking into but it's fairly tricky to implement (would likely require turning construction into an actual good and subjecting it to market forces, which is a *major* revamp with severe implications) and so isn't coming for 1.2 at least.

Yes in both cases, if there's unused capacity on one type the other gets to use it.


Mithkabob said:


I very much like this idea, although I still have concerns about how it can handle in a late game economy. While the construction queue is being updated, would it be possible to combine multiple level upgrades being performed at the same time into a single queue item to help address performance issues with the queue in late game? If for example the private sector has money and desire to build 20 levels of an industry at once, can they queue it as a single item?

I do like that it will help economic development somewhat when the nation is bankrupting itself (as long as AI doesn't decide to demolish the entire construction sector), but hoping you are addressing issues with AI bankrupting themselves with conscription (in particular using opium consuming PM with low access to opium, but also later in game with rubber and bicycle messenger PM).
The construction queue 'behind the scenes' is actually still a single queue, it's just presented as separate queues to the player, so there is no performance impact from this. We also think we have identified a way to majorly improve the performance impact of large construction queues in general, a programmer is actually working on it right as we speak.


Cpt.Cross said:


is there any chance that workers co-ops will have their restrictions to council republics removed?
There are a bunch of changes coming to economic laws in general in 1.2, but that's the topic for next week's dev diary.


GoguRomania said:


Would there be a way to move funds from the national treasury into the private investment pool? Say, I have a good surplus but I want to let the pops do the building and decide what to build - can I subsidize this, from treasury? Or just build myself what I think should be built?
At the moment no, it's something I'd like to do but I can't promise it for 1.2.


Froonk said:


Is it considered to actually give all pop types investment option? I can't see why for example farmers would be investing but say not academics. Maybe add in a ratio based on factors such as present wealth, literacy as well as law types that shifts these investment ratios.

I can see for example a highly literate and developed society, such as Netherlands, having all of their pop types investing. While in a low literacy, low economic development and low education society it would be odd that farmers are investing.

There does seem a high level of correlation between being educated and having wealth already to investing your money. So arbitrarily decided percentages may not be the best compared to literacy and wealth.
Pops invest based on dividends from ownership shares, so Academics wouldn't actually have any money to invest - which Pops do invest is generally based on who tends to have ownership shares.


Ttrgw said:


Can you give the AI any good modifiers for building? I'm not a great player, but I think I can build more decently than the AI, so I'm not inclined to turn this mode on just to let the AI do it.
Something that is worth noting here is that the AI for this only has to consider which buildings make sense to build for profit and supplying needed goods for the market, which it actually has pretty solid tools for doing. Many of the issues that result in poor AI economic performance is actually things like the AI razing their ports or ending up in too many civil wars. With that said, we are also making a general concerted effort to improve the AI across the board in 1.2, including building selections.


magriboy0750 said:


It was more a general question,since i have seen a few people mentioning they like modding it for subsidies,for example.To clarify,my main question was if there are any changes regarding investment pool modding compared to current version or not?
The modifiers and values involved are a bit different and you have some more efficiency tools to play with, but otherwise no significant changes.


lilcritt said:


Hey @Wizzington

Can I ask what the scope or roadmap of 1.2 is in general? Is this only focusing on economy or are we going to see other changes to systems?

1 DD for investment poool
1 DD for more economy
1 DD for graphical changes
1 DD for War changes
1 DD for Politics changes
1 DD for Balance
etc

1.2 release in a few months? or soon. What does that look like.

Thanks

PS
Also please add voting functionality to suggestions :p

Click to expand...
We're not ready to talk about the whole scope of 1.2 yet, but you can definitely expect to see several points from our post release plans DD checked off.


amocpower said:


Will it split always 50%-50%?

I would say more liberal economis should have lesser control over construction sector
No, it depends on economic laws, so the Private allocation is higher under LF for example.


Froonk said:


That is indeed true under current system, so could there be anything regarding a more general and developed investment system where all pops which have surplus money could invest for dividends without ownership and without pre-determined percentage values in future? Perhaps as part of a content update or DLC later. Perhaps as part of a system of investing in foreign countries?
Honestly if we were to do something like that it would probably need to be something more akin to Pops buying private stock or investing in treasury bonds - an Academic working as a university isn't likely to just go over to the local factory owner and go 'here's my life savings, build yourself something nice' ;)


Gort11 said:


Seems a bit arbitrary that shopkeepers and farmers contribute to the investment pool, but not say, bureaucrats.

Kinda feels like all the pop types except slaves should be able to contribute, assuming their standard of living is above a certain level.
It's based on who owns shares in buildings. Bureaucrats don't have building shares in 1.2.


Irbynx said:


Don't Academics get ownership shares in Art Academies, getting dividends from selling Fine Art?
You're right actually, though that's such an edge case I'm not sure it's worth throwing an investment modifier on them just for art academies.


xImperialist said:


Are the lag and fps drop issues introduced by 1.1 finally going to be addressed in 1.2?
Performance is for sure one of the top priorities of 1.2 and we have several programmers working on it.


Werther said:


Do the private sector takes pop available in consideration ? When I'm France i don't really care, but when I'm Hawaï and only have 10K paysants available, I'm bit scare that pop build things I don't need when every man (and sadly child) count.
It should avoid building where there's no available labor, but in the specific example you cited they would probably view those 10k peasants as peasants they could be using to turn a profit instead of saying 'oh, I guess the state needs them all'.


GrounchoVilla said:


Is it possible to change the settings in-game, say if I really want to focus my economy for a bit before switching back to a privately managed investment pool, or is this just something you set prior to the game?

Will this also lead to any rebalancing of state-owned economies in relation to private-driven economies? I doubt this would be popular, but it would be interesting if state economies had a kind of "investment pool" which worked differently than the capitalist one and operated with different priorities with the money taken directly from dividends. Perhaps it focuses on reducing the price of industrial goods or increasing SoL instead of profit? But there are other ways command economies and council republics could be tweaked to balance them (like giving them a way to capture more of the dividends in the form of taxes etc).

In any case, I like the change since it makes the difference ownership methods more meaningful.
No, game rules cannot be changed over the course of a game (except by save-editing). You can always go Command Economy though if you don't want to deal with a private sector.


Fletz said:


So when a new private plantage gets builded which pop will become owner? how does the game decide it?
For now Pops cannot own shares in buildings they don't work in so when Pops invest in 'new' buildings it's more about Aristocrats investing in the collective wellbeing of their social class etc. Ownership not being tied to employment is something I want to change eventually, but it's a major rework and outside the scope of 1.2.


FaIconere said:


This looks really cool. One question:
The ai calculates what to build based on profit, does this take into account pop class? Will for example Landowners mainly invest in farms in order to strengthen and preserve the power of the aristocracy or will they invest in the steel mill that's more profitable?
The investment logic takes into account who the money is coming from, so if your investment pool is mostly coming from Aristocrats, expect a lot of farms.


MathyM said:


Great, we are seeing a little more of Vic 2 without losing what already makes Vic 3 a fun and engaging game.

We have been told a few times that GDP will probably be fixed for 1.2, so that input goods cost is subtracted from each factory, no longer over-inflating the contribution of highly processed goods. Is this still in the plans?
Value added GDP is indeed in 1.2.


WildMarker said:


Autobuilding of Railways based on infra instead of profit is going to be a godsend for playing larger countries. Will this be implemented for regular auto-expand too?
Not currently but should be easy enough to do.


Fletz said:


So in Agrarianism the Capitalists do invest but no capitalist-buildings get built or?
Agrarianism in 1.2 has a few buildings for Capitalists to invest in, like Logging Camps and Fisheries.


399311 said:


I don't quite understand about the contribution efficiency, is this 100 contributed by capitalists will become 150?
Yes. We try to avoid creating/destroying money as much as possible but in cases like this the alternative is worse. The long term goal is to find a place for all such wealth to go/come from, like Tax Waste going to some sort of corruption system or similar.


Manst said:


Why not do the opposite? I.E. capitalists pay 100 but the effincy is only 70% so the money that gets into the pool is only 70. I think it would be slightly more believable, as it could be explained by legislation and bureaucracy limitations.
This is also the case if efficiency is low.
 
Hey, thanks for the DD!

What are your thoughts on balancing around a game rule that has as much impact as this one?

I think it is fair to say that the speed and focus of an economic build-up will differ quite significantly between an AI-controlled investment pool and a player-controlled investment pool.
For example, players will be likely to realise that it can be advisable to just build 100 levels of opium straight for the massive amounts of additional investment pool contribution this can generate, whereas the AI would be (and with good reason) less likely to build the economy in such an extremely optimal fashion.

My concern here is that the dev team has to account for both this manual tryhard and a more AI-guided approach since the game rule allows for either.
Is balancing this even viable? Is this not quite likely to end with one or the other game rule setting leading to rather unbalanced economic (and with that political, technological, warfare, diplomatic etc) circumstances as only one setting gets focused in development?

All in all quite excited by these alterations, but I can't help but feel that the additional manpower/manhours for testing this game rule are likely to become an issue. I'd even say that I would have liked it if the game instead fully committed to this new investment pool approach even if not everybody were to be a fan of it.
 
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Is the new investment pool system moddable? Currently its hardcoded and you cant link something like subsidies (using investment pool to pay for subsidies)
 
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Is it considered to actually give all pop types investment option? I can't see why for example farmers would be investing but say not academics. Maybe add in a ratio based on factors such as present wealth, literacy as well as law types that shifts these investment ratios.

I can see for example a highly literate and developed society, such as Netherlands, having all of their pop types investing. While in a low literacy, low economic development and low education society it would be odd that farmers are investing.

There does seem a high level of correlation between being educated and having wealth already to investing your money. So arbitrarily decided percentages may not be the best compared to literacy and wealth.
 
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Government shares huh? Sounds as if this is the first step on the FDI journey.
But about my Pops building buildings... Maybe I've missed it but I hope that governmental orders are automatically priorititzed
 
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Would there be a way to move funds from the national treasury into the private investment pool? Say, I have a good surplus but I want to let the pops do the building and decide what to build - can I subsidize this, from treasury? Or just build myself what I think should be built?
 
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No doubt this won’t be easy to develop, balance, and maintain.

If you want pops to have autonomy to invest, equally they need more agency in politics (government composition, production methods, institutions and laws) and diplomacy.

I think that autonomous national development should really be the final piece of the puzzle akin to how espionage dlcs were described for hoi4/stellaris. Maybe the game needs more mature mechanics before AI/Pops can have greater autonomy.
 
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2 questions:

Can the pop investment pool build queue decide to queue up construction sectors? Or is that government construction only?

If the government queue is empty does the private queue get to make use of the idle construction capacity? Same for the reverse.
 
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Hey, thanks for the DD!

What are your thoughts on balancing around a game rule that has as much impact as this one?

I think it is fair to say that the speed and focus of an economic build-up will differ quite significantly between an AI-controlled investment pool and a player-controlled investment pool.
For example, players will be likely to realise that it can be advisable to just build 100 levels of opium straight for the massive amounts of additional investment pool contribution this can generate, whereas the AI would be (and with good reason) less likely to build the economy in such an extremely optimal fashion.

My concern here is that the dev team has to account for both this manual tryhard and a more AI-guided approach since the game rule allows for either.
Is balancing this even viable? Is this not quite likely to end with one or the other game rule setting leading to rather unbalanced economic (and with that political, technological, warfare, diplomatic etc) circumstances as only one setting gets focused in development?

All in all quite excited by these alterations, but I can't help but feel that the additional manpower/manhours for testing this game rule are likely to become an issue. I'd even say that I would have liked it if the game instead fully committed to this new investment pool approach even if not everybody were to be a fan of it.
Honestly, I would say that I'm not too worried by it - for sure it's likely that experienced players will have an easier time with the game if they decide to play with Autonomous Investment off, but given that this is only difficult in context of a single player game (or a MP where everyone uses the same rule) I don't think this is something that requires a ton of careful balancing on our part - that time is probably better spent improving the AI or finding ways to make it more challenging to 'snowball' your GDP in general. In regards to your last point, we intentionally built this feature in such a way as to piggyback on the existing investment pool mechanics, and the amount of extra testing required on our end should be minimal.
 
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Good afternoon,a great dd and very happy for the game rules,this way,everyone is happy.However,i have a few questions:
1) Can we mod the investment pool contribution for pop types other than capitalists,aristocrats,shopkeepers and farmers,just like it work in the current version,for example,for modded pop types?
2)How moddable the investment pool in general will be compared to the current version?
Thanks for any replies about this.
 
I very much like this idea, although I still have concerns about how it can handle in a late game economy. While the construction queue is being updated, would it be possible to combine multiple level upgrades being performed at the same time into a single queue item to help address performance issues with the queue in late game? If for example the private sector has money and desire to build 20 levels of an industry at once, can they queue it as a single item?

I do like that it will help economic development somewhat when the nation is bankrupting itself (as long as AI doesn't decide to demolish the entire construction sector), but hoping you are addressing issues with AI bankrupting themselves with conscription (in particular using opium consuming PM with low access to opium, but also later in game with rubber and bicycle messenger PM).
 
2 questions:

Can the pop investment pool build queue decide to queue up construction sectors? Or is that government construction only?

If the government queue is empty does the private queue get to make use of the idle construction capacity? Same for the reverse.
At the moment there is no private construction industries, it's something we're looking into but it's fairly tricky to implement (would likely require turning construction into an actual good and subjecting it to market forces, which is a *major* revamp with severe implications) and so isn't coming for 1.2 at least.

Yes in both cases, if there's unused capacity on one type the other gets to use it.
 
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I very much like this idea, although I still have concerns about how it can handle in a late game economy. While the construction queue is being updated, would it be possible to combine multiple level upgrades being performed at the same time into a single queue item to help address performance issues with the queue in late game? If for example the private sector has money and desire to build 20 levels of an industry at once, can they queue it as a single item?

I do like that it will help economic development somewhat when the nation is bankrupting itself (as long as AI doesn't decide to demolish the entire construction sector), but hoping you are addressing issues with AI bankrupting themselves with conscription (in particular using opium consuming PM with low access to opium, but also later in game with rubber and bicycle messenger PM).
The construction queue 'behind the scenes' is actually still a single queue, it's just presented as separate queues to the player, so there is no performance impact from this. We also think we have identified a way to majorly improve the performance impact of large construction queues in general, a programmer is actually working on it right as we speak.
 
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is there any chance that workers co-ops will have their restrictions to council republics removed?
There are a bunch of changes coming to economic laws in general in 1.2, but that's the topic for next week's dev diary.
 
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Good afternoon,a great dd and very happy for the game rules,this way,everyone is happy.However,i have a few questions:
1) Can we mod the investment pool contribution for pop types other than capitalists,aristocrats,shopkeepers and farmers,just like it work in the current version,for example,for modded pop types?
2)How moddable the investment pool in general will be compared to the current version?
Thanks for any replies about this.
1) Yes, absolutely.
2) I'm actually unsure what the question here entails - what parts of it would you like to be able to mod?
 
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Would there be a way to move funds from the national treasury into the private investment pool? Say, I have a good surplus but I want to let the pops do the building and decide what to build - can I subsidize this, from treasury? Or just build myself what I think should be built?
At the moment no, it's something I'd like to do but I can't promise it for 1.2.
 
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